INTERVIEW: David Nutt

Professor David Nutt was the Chairman of the Government’s Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, but was fired by the previous Labour government in 2009 for revealing that ecstasy use was statistically less dangerous than horse riding. The world famous scientist was in Oxford to talk at the Union a few weeks ago, so we went to a pub to conduct an interview with him.

We did attempt to conduct the interview while our reporter was under the effects of LSD, for an extra twist. Unfortunately, after taking one tab several hours before the interview, it seemed to have had no effect by the time Professor Nutt was about to arrive, so our reporter took a second. The interview was quite uneventful as the two tabs only hit our reporter about twenty minutes after the interview had finished.

He then locked himself in his room for 36 hours without eating or sleeping, the project having been a complete disaster. He is now safe. The following is the interview transcript.

Alcohol

The Tab: Concerning alcohol to start with, is there a safe level of consumption?

Professor Nutt: Yes – half a unit a day, which is about a quarter of a pint.

The Tab: Can you roll that over onto the next day, so have a whole pint after four days of not drinking?

Professor Nutt: No you cannot do that, obviously.

The Tab: I mean, humans naturally want to alter their state of consciousness for a short period don’t they?

Professor Nutt: Maybe that’s a good thing. But you want to do that with something that won’t get you addicted. Unfortunately alcohol is a very addictive drug. Pre-loading [pre-drinking] is a bad sign. Drinking in order to go out is a dangerous sign.

The Tab: Isn’t it my right to drink as long as I’m not harming anyone else?

Professor Nutt: Absolutely it is. But you’ve got to think about it in the context of why you’re doing it. Some people do it because they’re anxious? And the only way to relax is to have a few drinks. I’ve had friends – doctors, dentists – who have died of alcoholism and they drunk so much because they were anxious about meeting people.

A quarter of young male alcoholics have got social anxiety disorder. A lot of people haven’t got the confidence to talk to girls or boys, depending on what they fancy, until they’re drunk, and then they get addicted.

The Tab: Do you drink?

Professor Nutt: Of course I drink…because I enjoy it. But most of what we think we enjoy in alcohol is the actual alcohol. I used to go out and alcohol was just a constitutive part of the entertainment, not the reason to go out, or the goal of a night out, like nowadays.

The Tab: The places in Oxford are not pretty. The décor is so negative.

(Pause)

Drugs

The Tab: Would you support your children using ecstasy recreationally?

Professor Nutt: I’d support them doing whatever they thought appropriate, the only guidance is that if you break the law, it’s a very cruel and merciless opponent and you can get fucked over.

My argument is that if a drug, like ecstasy, is safer than alcohol – and it is unquestionably safer – then it should be made available in a way that doesn’t incur the risk of criminalization.

At the moment people are forced to drink alcohol if they want to change how their brain works. And that’s wrong to force people.

If a drug is less harmful than alcohol it should be readily available. I would have beer in the pub, your cannabis in a coffee shop and your ecstasy in a pharmacy. Now alcohol is the leading cause of death in men in this country between 16 and 64.

The Tab: Do you think the British people care enough about the evidence?

Professor Nutt: They care about evidence of costs. The way we pursue the drinking culture in our country costs every taxpayer at least £1,000 a year to subsidise the way we drink. It makes economic sense to control alcohol, everyone knows that, and the reason we don’t is because there would be a short term loss to the treasury, who resist it because all they care about is getting their party re-elected.

 

Politics and the media

The Tab: Are Westminster out of touch on drugs?

Professor Nutt: They totally know all about it. 80% of MPs agree with me they just don’t have the courage to say so.

The Tab: What’s stopping them?

Professor Nutt: It’s the fear that the electorate won’t go with them. No it’s not even that actually – the only thing they’re scared of is the Daily Mail. And to some extent the Sun.

The Tab: The Sun gets read by three million people every day.

Professor Nutt: Yes but the Mail gets read by four million voters.

The Tab: Ahhhh touché! Was it the tabloid press that lead to your sacking?

Professor Nutt: No, there was a group of people who wanted to sack me, a guy called David Ramsey or something, who has three huge folders on me and monitors everything I do. They got me sacked.

The Tab: Was he a Government Agent? They’re everywhere.

Professor Nutt: That’s a good question. He was a civil servant. He got himself appointed at EURAD (Europe against Drugs), who are a group of crazies who think we have to blindly follow the UN conventions on drugs.

The Tab: Would Dr Ramsey enjoy a pinger?

Professor Nutt: No, probably not. Did you see the channel 4 programme [where Professor Nutt tested the effects of MDMA on the brains of several variety of people in a controlled environment]? We gave the MP Evan Harris pure MDMA and he hated it because he didn’t let himself go with the flow.

People would worry “What if everyone wanted to take LSD?” But that’s ridiculous, not everyone will want to take LSD. It’s not like alcohol.

The Tab: Definitely not. Can a small group of journalists generate such a huge level of fear and opposition to change?

Professor Nutt: I think it’s simpler than that. The editor of the Mail has a plan – stop drugs. Everyone has to play by his rules as he’s a tyrant, and he gets pleasure every time a drug gets banned. It’s one of the few things a newspaper can do – to get a drug banned.

The Tab: Should people try drugs?

Professor Nutt: It’s part of growing up. I certainly don’t see why people should be forced not to. People should make their own minds up.

The Tab: What motivates you fundamentally?

Professor Nutt: The truth. What drives me is the fact that we lie about this continually and have done my whole life. I’m pissed off about it.

The Tab: When David Cameron did a U-Turn on drugs [upon becoming leader of the Tory Party], didn’t he just care more about his career than about truthful drug policy.

Professor Nutt: What he did then was symptomatic of what he’s done since. Every time he’s been pressured on something he’s changed. He’s got no principles, he’s spineless.